go up again against the debt ceiling, and risk the country crashing into the debt ceiling, on the belief that they have learned the lesson and they wouldn't do it. >> wow, you know, you may be right. but i think that is kind of a tough belief if that is where he is coming from. because i'm not convinced and i doubt that you two are that the republicans won't go over what i believe is actually a real cliff on like the fiscal cliff, which is defaulting. and so when i hear the president say i will not negotiate with republicans over the debt ceiling that makes me feel very good. because to me, the quality of the deal that we have been talking about right now is fully a function of the president maintaining that stance. if he goes anywhere near this thing that is called the boehner rule, where john boehner says for every dollar increase we give you in the debt ceiling you have to give us spending cuts. and by the way, the republicans think they're out of the tax spending business. the president thinks they will. they also believe they have the leverage now with the debt ceiling. the only way the president gives