right? the number of people, private contractors and government employees and all sort of people who have access to this nflgt. more and more information about what the government is doing put behind the curtain of secrecy, behind the curtain of classification and there are no mechanisms in place as far as i can tell with real teeth and real strength that can ever incentive advise people to err on the side of openness. and for reasons that are in some cases incredibly compelling life or death reasons. it's not like people are necessarily nefarious. it's that if you're making a tough call on secrecy or openness, the risk of putting something out there that shouldn't be seems to you as the person making that judgment much larger -- >> always. >> -- than keeping something hidden that shouldn't be open. >> as i was referencing, it is almost never been true but there is one case, it's pretty fascinating, where bill leonard, a former federal official was working on the drake case saw where there had been clearly a