but that presents some very difficult challenges in terms of the so-called tax expenditures, because if you don't go up on the top rate, you have to go deeper into tax expenditures. that means you start affecting very popular things like home mortgage deduction, the health care deduction. >> that's basically what bill clinton was saying, the math doesn't work. ken conrad can do that every day and other democrats are well versed in that, and the republicans, i get the feeling they realize that argument is working. >> i think that's right. one of the arguments about mitt romney, the math doesn't add up is because they weren't saying what was in the math. that was a big problem for the republicans throughout the campaign. we are now past that point. we're going to have to say it. mitt romney's argument was we'll tell you once we're elected what this plan looks like. now what you're hearing is a confidence about not just rates versus deductions but rates