>> it sounds better than it looks. it looks nice. then you say it out loud. >> i don't think it looks nice, either. >> did i get the basic point right there about, about the money -- money outside the campaigns, money you've been raising and spending. it's at a disadvantage. you have to pay more for your ad time? >> the campaigns pay a much cheaper rate than the superpacs are able to pay. on the republican side, karl rove and the koch brothers have hundreds of millions of dollars so can put throwaway behind ads they're doing and can be up and have an impact. the truth is the campaigns are allowed to spend at a much cheaper value. >> i know that the legal distinction is that there's not supposed to be any coordination between pacs supporting a candidate. superpacs supporting a candidate and the candidates' campaign. here's the thing i don't understand. i understand that means you can't sit down with david axelrod and say, okay, we're all going to focus on bain.