>> i think those conversations are pretty rough. i think i probably couldn't repeat a lot of them on the air. i think they're really upset about the health care mandate, they're upset about the state the country's in in terms of the economy. i think those are really tough conversations. i think you ought to go to the water cooler, right, in the offices of america, in the office parks and so forth, where you're going to find the kind of men who are going to have a reasonable conversation, who aren't going to think that romney and the republicans are the solution or the answer. >> yeah, matt, what do you think, that anecdotal factor of people who work in offices rather than work in road gangs or work in factory, you've got a better shot? >> yeah, i think that's right. although, there are parts of his record that are macho, as you mentioned, killing bin laden. prosecuting these wars. >> saving ford and gm. how about saving the auto industry? >> yeah, those are things it seems to me they can play up. i'm not sure it's going to work, but there are certainly things they can turn to. >> well, what is it about -- i want to give you a shot at this, matt. what is it about obama that turns off, we'll say it, white working class guys who didn't go