he's been hanging around the bars and restaurantses of chapel hill, which is not a bad way to spend your time, but not exactly stuff that gets into the 12 apostles. you know? >> i don't think he's trying out for the 12 apostles. he'd be lucky to kind of get into the lower ranks of heaven. >> i want to go to him after you, mr. shrum, because you're one of my close friends. people fell or this quite. it was his cute manner, that little boy -- why did you fall for it? >> when i met him in 1997, i thought he was a person of extraordinary talent. >> why? >> he was articulate, he was smart. look, nobody thought he could beat lauch faircloth and he did it. and john mccain was impressed with him, ted kennedy, but then over time he never fulfilled that potential. >> did he ever read a book? did he ever read a newspaper? >> i think he read a newspaper. >> i don't believe that. i don't think he reads anything.