i would tell you that eliminating tax credits and tax gimmicks and tax loopholes is eliminating spending, it is not raising taxes. >> i think this is an important point. the tax code has these things called tax expenditures. they give people money to help buy a house. they give oil companies money. they give money for ethanol, millions of other things. they are bigger than medicare. they are huge. with more than a trillion dollars according to the tax policy center. alan greenspan says he should be considering spending. and donald marone says they should be considered spending do. you consider them spending, or are they just spending disguised as parts of the tax code? >> i do. >> one thing that can be hard to figure out given there's been many republicans, almost all of them, who have signed the pledge is, is it just them in a negotiating position? you mentioned behind closed