people -- that this issue of the budget and the deficit is the critical piece and just as we were -- >> it's the terrifying threat. >> precisely. >> because they think it's the same as our own personal budget, as opposed to a stimulative effect which will create jobs, which will create more consumer demands. >> obama conceded on this point too early. when he did the freeze in the federal pay, i mean it was absolutely ridiculous. to make the concession -- >> but we have to -- >> we're talking about controlled experiments, i think we have to the fact that conservative governments were elected explicitly, let's all remember this conservative governments on the continent in europe, right. ran on austerity, they got elected to office, running explicitly on austerity. then they passed austerity. so to the degree that there is a public-political appeal to the austerity agenda, it is not distinct to the united states, now is it necessarily --