time. i mean, republicans have tended to nominate the next in line, the bob doles, the george h.w. bush's, and we saw barack obama take the campaign model you pioneered in 2004 and use it very effectively in 2008. do you think we're seeing something new this year in the republican primary in which an insurgent candidate, because of grassroots fundraising, that you helped pioneer in 2004 like michele bachmann, can seize the nomination, or is the establishment still strong enough to beat that back? >> that's a stuff one. on paper, perry looked like he could beat romney when he got into the race. i'm not so sure he can now. i think bachmann is probably a little far out to be able to beat romney. i mean, romney is the establishment candidate, there's no question about that. most people in the republican party, establishment, wall