that's the problem. disillusioned. >> playing fire with other people's lives. tea party patriots. >> prices will be paid for this, but not by them. >> okay, pat. otherwise known at mrs. o'leery's cow. just kidding, of course. you are a patriot in your own strange way, pat buchanan. >> america first. >> oftentimes it has been. the most powerful man americans probably never heard of, grover norquist, with the anti-tax republicans are hog-tied supporting his position on the debt. let's talk to one of the most powerful men in america. when we come back. grover norquist, when we come back in a moment. you're watching "hardball" on msnbc.