started with that, and then they had this is critical, a warrantless wiretapping of a phone call and they made a connection and eventually figured out who this courier was who was going to see osama bin laden in pakistan. once they had his nom de guerre, had his fake name this co-trace who he was, where he was going. >> you just jumped over the fence with me, cliff. you jumped over the fence. how did we get knowing his nickname, his code name to his nom de guerre? to who he was? how did they find out who he was? >> that's where you get into the warrantless wiretap, the name was used, they checked the phone records and found that they believe they had now had the actual courier. they had a phone number and they had a name and they had somebody they could follow. here is the thing, chris, you can be against waterboarding, you can be against torture, you can be against other coercive