>> i have no way of knowing. you i think the taxpayers of wisconsin won. it seems to me that he committed to do the sorts of things he's trying to do and we ought to agree or disagree with people, we ought to respect them when they do try to live up to their words. >> but he didn't campaign on the collective bargaining aspect of this. he campaigned to asking public employees to contribute more. do you think that was a mistake? >> i don't know, but i would say from our own experience, that if have a serious fiscal problem, which we did six years ago and don't today. that having the flexibility to manage government, not only to save money, but to serve people better, i could illustrate this in 100 ways. is pretty important. and before we discontinued government union, collective bargaining in indiana, you really couldn't make any of the changes. >> do you not believe in collective bargaining? >> i do believe in collective bargaining, in the private sector. but only within -- >> you don't think public employees should have it? >> don't take it from me.