individual institutions that caused this mess. >> this is the reason why most of us on the right are so they are vows about the government taking over another program with health care, because social security, 2004 to 2008, 10.7 billion in fraud. this year alone $1.7 million a month in 2008 and we're going to create another huge industry run by the government. >> wait a second. you're playing the game. instead of talking about the social security fraud, which everyone on the left and the right will agree is wrong, let's talk about -- let's talk about corporate america and let's talk about the fraud there and the republicans -- >> yes, because we can't talk about the government's problems with this issue. we can't talk about the government's own problem when they want to take over an entire industry. >> jordan, you're dodging the question. everybody knows the problem. >> i'm not saying -- >> i'm not saying it's not a problem at goldman sachs but it's a good example of why the government shouldn't be involved. >> let me try the question again and see if you can answer it. the question is we know that