but if he pardons him for stuff that's already out, it's almost like if people are concerned that there's a pardon happening that's not appropriate, it just -- it won't hold the same weight as people might think it would. arthel: michael, i think rachel's saying that the voice mails may not be a thing but i think you say it could be a thing. so for those looking for a smoking gun in one of the 10 obstruction of justice questions raised in the special counsel report, is this it, the audio from trump's personal attorney, john dowd? >> it could be. let me say that if there's some kind of message there, to mike flynn by dowd that's given at trump's direction that he should not cooperate, that he should hang tight and be a good soldier and carry on and fight the fight for the president, that's a problem. that's considered conduct the congress could look at if they're going to impeach. if he's changing lawyers because they're going to encourage him to try to get out of his plea agreement, he needs to look for a new set of lawyers after that.