the jury decided was that he -- they didn't know he was going to use the money for that purpose. the president knew he was using the money for that purpose, at that time, right before the election -- >> harris: ho do you know that he's on tape saying it and we have the time line. >> long before he started running for office -- >> harris: he isn't on tape saying -- >> he's on tape, cohen has tape they're discussing how the payment should be made. >> harris: the why of it, that's what matters. >> even if it an s.e.c. violation, they're met with fines. president obama, 2008, was one of the largest violations, levied against a president. >> they're typically treated as civil not criminal cases. that's the abomination. the legal liability as well, many people have been saying in regard to the politics of this, sure it's going to drive out partisans in suburban districts that don't like trump, but it doesn't touch them -- >> how about the political