this is they're fighting it out in the court of public opinion. you would never handle a normal investigation like this. because again, anything you said. now bill, you turn -- the only thing that should matter is the trump tower meeting is not evidence of an espionage conspiracy. legally that's what matters. if you fight every single thing about the tape. it's a one week story, what does the tape say? did he lie? the tape doesn't prove a crime. >> bill: trump tower final question. to have the meeting is not illegal. >> right. >> bill: to lie about it is not good you aren't under oath. that's not a crime. where is the crime here? >> well, in the narrow meeting at the trump tower there is no crime. the question is does it fit in within a context of proving an espionage conspiracy between the trump campaign and russia which is the rationale for the