was used to create an opening so they could get the hacksaws in there to start their cutting. >> okay. >> but it's hard to tell at this point. >> all right. rod, joyce mitchell the woman who was supposed to pick them up when they actually came out of the manhole that night, she got scared didn't do it. >> right. >> are you surprised that they had no plan b? because a lot of people thought, hey, they're already in mexico by like the third day. are you surprised? >> i am surprised. i think a lot of folks in law enforcement are surprised. here is why, gretchen. this escape was sophisticated, meticulous as i indicated. they'd been planning it for a while. you would think that if joyce mitchell wasn't there they'd say let's resort to plan b. their plan b was to get lost in the wilderness as we know. that's where they ended up headed towards the canadian border. they wouldn't have gotten across the border but that's what their plan b was. it obviously didn't work out for them. >> 20-some days for authorities