unlearning many lessons of the recent past. >> food stamps as a specific program is one of the most obvious ways in which the government has reached in to american neighborhoods and said it is okay to be the cost of th pride that used to be the hallmark of america. >> that puts murray directly at odds with joel burg who you will remember ram meants the stigma that still surrounds food stamps is making it hard for groups like his to fight the spector of mass hunger in america. >> shouldn't there be at least some stigma? >> no. >> at all? >> no more than there should be a stigma of a small business person getting government grants or loans. no more than someone riding their private car over a government paved road. >> we are ostracized with that question. i wish people who understand