respect. murray thinks america is unlearning many lessons of the recent past. >> food stamps as a specific program is one of the most obvious ways in which the government has reached into american neighborhoods and said it's okay to be dependent. the cost of that is the kind of pride that used to be the hall mark of america. >> that puts murray directly at odds with joel berg who you will remember laments the stigma that surrounds food stamps is making it hard for groups like his to fight the spector of mass hunger in america. >> shouldn't there be at least some stigma? >> not at all. no more than there should be a stigma for a small business person getting a grant or loan or for someone riding their private car or the government paved road. >> we are on opposite sides of the question.