testify. how long were you the irs chief? >> >> bill, just over four years from may -- started may of '03 until the may of '07. >> how many times did you go to the white house? >> you know, i don't have a precise number. my wife at the time i was married she actually worked on al gonzalez wants staff. >> bill: i mean, official irs business? how many times? >> oh, i testified last year before issa's committee i only went over there to my recollection once on a policy matter. interagency policy matter if you will. that was to talk about immigration reform. to get to this question, can i say one thing just to start off? >> bill: yeah. >> how sadly disturbed i am by all of what has come out. because in my -- >> bill: let's stay to the factual realm because you, better than anyone, know what the job is. all right, so you went over there once to talk about