senate budget? >> somebody's going to pay higher taxes because it it doesn't matter how you define that. when you're talking about whether closing loopholes or talking about rates and taxes to pay more taxes, we believe that-- >>, but the loopholes, someone got a bargain because someone got a lobbyist to persuade you guys to give that person a loophole? >> the point is you shouldn't have to raise taxes until you deal with spending and the president's got tax increases, 620 billion dollars in the fiscal cliff, 1 trillion dollars in new taxes with obamacare and now he wants another 1.5 trillion dollars in taxes. when are we going to deal with the spending? and that's what i think the american people want to see. and so when they talk about closing loopholes, we're all for that, but let's do it in the context of tax reform that lowers rates in a revenue neutral way, not in a way that increases the amount of tax revenue coming into the federal treasury at a time when we've got out of control spending and federal revenues are already going up. >> the president is going to