country and stressing his own blue-collar roots, his grandfathering, a coal miner-- ats all genuine by the way. we know rick santorum very well. he's a genuine guy. when you see rick santorum say and do is who rick santorum is. but i am telling you that the republican party big wig it's karl scproaf these kinds of people, all right? they basically look at the landscape and they go, if it is santorum who gets the nomination, in august, in tampa. all right? then what they are up against is an ideological conservative against a populist liberal, with all of that implication for -- right. >> bill: the independent voters. >> i think that's the way a lot of the establishment wants to see the election. but i would submit-- no, they want someone more moderate like romney to get the independent votes. >> yeah, that's my point. romney's a safer bet. >> bill: right. >> but that might be a little