the guns actually got into the hands of the bad guys. >> and he-- no, he knew the programs existed. he didn't know that it went bad at a certain point. >> and the-- you don't know what's going on-- >> here is a memo that surfaced this week from the director of the national drug intelligence center, michael walter, to eric holder. it reads in part redacted, straw purchasers are responsible for the purchase of arms supplied to mexican drug trafficking cartels. and they also have direct ties to the cartel in the phoenix area. and 2010. alan, they knew it was purchased what holder didn't know, apparently until march of this year where the guns were going and didn't intercept them quickly enough. that was the issue not that he didn't know about the fast and furious program. >> or as bill clinton said, it depends what the definition of