jon: but you can -- >> it's absurd to talk about healthy ranges and healthy horses when you have ten times more livestock than wild horses. >> those numbers are managed. those numbers of livestock are managed. the horse numbers must be managed. if they are not managed you're going to get degradation, it doesn't make any difference what the species is, if they are allowed to reproduce you're going to get degradation, that is what we're getting on the sheldon wildlife refuge now. there is a big turmoil going on up there. there are no domestic animals up there, there haven't been for decades and yet the wild horses are causing a deterioration to the wildlife habitat up there interfering with endangered species issues. >> the department of interior. jon: susanne i'm sorry we have to say goodbye. susanne roy, barry perryman, you can see why they are arguing