what is a good rule of thumb for consumer and country? >> the issue is the interest on the debt. it's getting to blow hole on the balance sheet the size of egypt. if you are borrowing money for the interest cost, good capital is not going to the economy to grow the businesses. they're saying -- we only pull in $2.7 trillion in tax revenue and we borrow the rest. if it gets to 20%, trending up, the interest costs. when the credit rate goes down and borrowing cost goes up and more taxpayers to spend on the bond yield. >> who is going to lend us the money? >> right. china is already saying that. >> trillion debt, as far as the eye can see, every year. we have to borrow that money. don't you think the lenders will turn and and say -- >> chinese are lecturing us on the spending habit. >> not lending to us at the moment. >> before they seize fannie and freddie, paulson, the former treasury secretary