each move but at a certain point they were isis hostages. that was november of twenty thirteen hard on that we got the first e-mail from the kidnappers that was sort of a watershed moment for us that we knew that there was jim. that he was alive and that we were dealing with the people who had him. but we knew little about them and . and then they went silent within a relatively short period of time after that. time is there is a tool that is malleable you can use it for as long as you want you can call somebody or reach out to somebody and wait two months before you do it again or you can wait three months before you ever reach out to them and then an intense negotiation goes on where it's almost daily contact or sporadic or intermittent contact and all these things are tools that the kidnappers use and i'm more experienced for the kidnapping group the better they aren't using any quote any