light for him that the strategy that he's deploying right now is not really a great general election strategy if you want to get independents, particularly independent women back. >> my take away is the trend line. we're so early it's hard to say yes, this is it. elizabeth warren seems to be solidifying second. that's -- she's been in that position since that first debate and we've seen camilla go up and down and biden go down and up. elizabeth seems to be calmly gaining momentum and if she turns out a debate, we might see that continue and could see paths cross. >> i'm sorry. >> i think what gloria says is very true. democrats want to beat trump. it's always been true that core to joe biden's appeal is that he was viewed as the trump slayer and that he was the least risky choice. what happened in the last debate was he looked a little riskier