and shrewd because others did the dirty work. we were constantly attacked. and our integrity was in tact, but president clinton was able to rise above it. >> what about this example? >> and what president trump refuses to do is follow the clinton model. i do not consider that obstruction. when you look at what the law of obstruction -- you can have the moral view of what obstruction is, and you can have the legal view. what constitutes the crime of obstruction of justice -- >> but hold on a second. hold on joe. >> but president trump went on television -- >> there is no corrupt motive that has been defined by the supreme court of the united states and in this room i have