misadventures in the ukraine. but even so, he notably failed to cooperate and kind of stuck his nose out at the justice system and lied to mueller and got away with it. so i would think that could potentially encourage other behavior. it feels like we've got to find out from one source or another. but one of the ones we were counting on, where mueller's charges in court. and you're right, this chapter ends with manafort having kept quiet and being able to not have given up anything of any significance. >> let me get one more thing to you and then i want neal to -- let me do this. neal, you button it up. harry, michael cohen, do you believe they have him on making a false statement before congress again? >> no, not -- it's not good enough. the -- they don't have materiality on the perjury charge. it's really kind of penny-ante, and anybody can refer, i don't see it going anywhere.