for president, i think every one but mine in 2012 had a reporting violation. does that mean they defrauded themselves in running? no. does it mean they had a conspiracy? no. people don't report things. i believe the president on this one that it's michael cohen's fault for not actually telling him, by the way, you have to report this or you might want to think about reporting it. not the president's fault. >> kiersten? >> well, it is a conspiracy actually. you know, when you have -- there are three people involved, you know, we're talking about between the two women. and so this was -- and it was meant to be hidden. the idea that the president, you know, at the time he wasn't president, but he was running for office, didn't know that money spent to hide information from voters so that they -- the campaign wouldn't be affected somehow related to the campaign isn't plausible. >> kiersten -- >> let her finish. >> like i said, even if that's true, even if that's true -- i