if you remember as part of that september plea agreement, don, the special counsel had essentially said that they were willing to encourage a judge to show him some leniency. this is a man obviously who is approaching his 70s, and he's staring at a couple decades in prison. so this was not a small thing, and apparently according to the special counsel, he has blown this all up by lying repeatedly to the investigators over the period of nine times that we've seen him go in there, spending dozens of hours in interviews with the special counsel's office. i should add that according to the court filing today, manafort himself says that he's provided truthful information and that he doesn't agree that he breached this agreement with the special counsel. >> laura, let's talk about that because as evan just said, we know that manafort met with prosecutors at least nine times since making a deal, a plea deal, with the special counsel. he spoke with him for hours. is this a ig blow to the mueller investigation? how do you read this? >> well, it's a big blow to manafort specifically. remember, the only way that