calls. but then emin about a month ago gave a full interview on, i believe, vice on hbo, in which he said, no, we did speak. and he laid out what they said, and it seemed a bit vague, but at the end of it, he said, don said, if you're ask for the meeting, i'll do it. so i've always said this, my e-mail was designed to get don junior's attention, not to get a meeting. >> and it worked. so manafort and kushner, you didn't invite them. did you know that they were going to the meeting? >> not until after that phone call. >> how do you think they got invited to meeting? >> if my e-mail from don junior is to be believed, he said, also joining us will be paul manafort and my brother-in-law, jared kushner. i assumed -- i always had assumed, after that call, he invited them. which is why i always thought, that call is what's important. >> do you think that there's any reason to believe that the president or then-candidate knew about the meeting, wanted his guys there, wanted hi son there,