lied repeatedly about it, publicly, he got his own attorney to come on television and either lie about it knowingly or accidentally and it's sleazy that sarah sanders -- he seems to have lied to sarah sanders about it -- >> alan, let me talk. >> you don't have to talk all the time. let jeff talk for a second. >> it is undoubtedly true that sleaziness is not a violation of federal criminal law. sleaziness is in the eye of the beholder and i don't think there's any doubt that there was sleazy behavior here. but it is misleading to say that federal campaign laws are so complicated that you can't know what they are. the whole reason why they paid this money in the convoluted way was to avoid -- was to break the law, because they knew how bad it would look. so, it is not a terribly complicated story. it is a willful violation of the law. >> i got to wrap it there.