these actions without the permission and the direction of the president. you could make a case. i'm just saying i don't know how much direct hard evidence there is to corroborate. >> not regarding stormy daniels. there's audiotape regarding the karen mcdougal situation in which donald trump and michael cohen, i don't know if conspiring is the right word, but they seem to be talking about and discussing the details of buying the rights to her story from ami. why they would be -- not like trump magazine actually exists that they were buying the rights so they could publish it. they were wanting to hold on to the rights so if the head of ami got hit by a truck in the immortal words of then candidate donald trump, they would be safe. you said he could still get immunity from mueller or immunity from congress if democrats win and decide to pursue impeachment charges. in both scenarios, he would be compelled to testify, right? >> right.