pending for some time. it looks to me, feels to me that, and this may be completely the opposite of the way the president would think, but it feels to me that the more the cases get tried and the more that it gets public, that manafort essentially didn't pay taxes, and benefitted in this extravagant way financially, and remember, the september case is going to be all about the political side as well. so it is -- the heat is going to continue to turn up. i think personally i think it gets harder and harder for the president to pardon him. >> jeff, do you agree with that, that it gets harder? again, this is a president who often, that may be the conventional wisdom, and a sensible way of looking at it. it doesn't mean it's the way the president views it. >> you know, conventionally, you know, no president would even consider pardoning someone who was so close to him. and remember how seedy the behavior was here. i mean, basically, what this case was about was lying about how much money you're making to save taxes when you're making a