and he was part of this scheme. so that adds a different dimension to his testimony where she was someone, as i understand from the proceedings today, who expressed remorse at having known that some of this was wrong activity, but has a little bit of distance in that she was the accountant, she wasn't the person sort of pursuing the scheme. >> with so much -- juliette, with so much evidence against manafort, what is his strategy? is he banking on a pardon from the president or a mistrial? >> oh, his strategy may be just to delay this as long as possible and hopefully win in court. i think at this stage we don't know his strategy because as carrie was pointing out, the evidence does seem pretty damning so far. it's document heavy, but also you have these five witnesses who worked with him day in and day out who are testifying against him. so it's -- you know, we always are looking for is there sort of some grand strategy to all this different behavior, stone or