those releases, et cetera. that's actually the criminal charge there. i think that beyond that, i mean, rudy giuliani's a smart lawyer, he's been around a long time, he knows that that is a crime and i'm sure he's read those indictments. beyond that, what is he trying to accomplish there? it's not the first time i have heard that kind of prepreemptive argument from trump loyalists -- president trump himself, you'll remember, when the trump tower meeting was first revealed a year ago raised this trial balloon saying, listen, anybody would get opposition research against their opponent, regardless of the source. that, frankly, doesn't stand up to the facts because there are laws against accepting material support from foreigners, which is what this would amount to. it's hard to say what rudy giuliani's trying to accomplish here, but i just try to stick to what the facts are on the law from hearing from smart lawyers. they say forget about collusion, talk about conspiracy -- >> and -- >> and that is illegal. >> and conspiracy is illegal.