i was in the campaign during that period of time. there was a major flurry of activity. you have to go back, jake, back to june of 2016 where one of the things that the campaign was worried about, and this is something paul manafort, frankly, was working on, is to make sure the president's electoral success state by state was going to be matched at the convention floor where we were counting delegates and we wanted to make sure there wasn't some kind of insurrection. so there was a massive amount of activity around that, very, very little activity away from that. you also have to remember, we were understaffed on that campaign, we were underfunded relative to secretary clinton's campaign as well. so to me it's very possible, and i take the president at his word, that he did not know about the meeting. >> but knowing what you know about president trump and how he runs things, you really find it credible that donald trump jr., jared kushner, paul manafort