president, which is separate from what the white house, in general, wants or separate from what white house counsel wants. and this is the consequence of that, perhaps, michael. >> i absolutely agree. if the question out there is why in the world would the white house and the legal team, and the political advisers around the president, want this to be happening? why would they want giuliani to be out here, giving all these interviews and making these statements without knowing what he's talking about or knowing the details, the only answer to that question has to be because the president wants him to be. because this is what the president is comfortable with. these -- they're like echoes of each other. if the white house counsel or political advisers were in charge, i can't imagine this is where they would want things to be. >> david or larry, take a stab at why would it be that this is what the president wants, for