giuliani's role is more on the pr side as we talked about, than the legal side. the same thing about paul manafort. they broke down his doors. i used to deal with the mafia, i don't know if he's been reading court filings, but paul manafort's raid was not a predawn no knock warrant. the special council made that clear in the last few weeks, it seems like he's not even familiar with his own clients case, he also made this statement that the president can't be subpoenaed because the president can't be distracted. i thought that was an interesting political argument. >> is this just, he's being paid to lie, to gin things up? >> i think he believes every word. i think giuliani -- >> he used to be the law and order guy. >> he used to be the law and order guy, he used to be a moderate republican. he's changed completely. he -- when he was mayor of new york city -- i mean, this is a diverse, pretty liberal city.