judge that. bill clinton was described as being really good at meeting with the families. when he has pence meet the families, they're doing the best they can. one is the widow, as we said earlier about the widow, their perspective, no matter what, has to be understood and respected. so i'm with you on all of that. but the pull back, what i meant is when i said kelly was in the middle of it, he was on the phone call. in other words, they thought the protocol for being respectful was best to have general kelly as chief of staff on the call. and he said that it was honorable and it was done in the right way. that's got to mean something. and i'm saying, now let's move this off center stage and talk about nafta going down and talk about health care going down. i just think we're beating the argument into the ground. >> i'm not ready to talk about nafta yet. evan, weigh in on this. >> basically, look, i think this is something that the president