naivety, look, we were high-powered business people running these operations but not smart enough to get this political thing. by the time the particular russian meeting happened in june 2016, they had been running for president for a year. don mcgann was on staff from the very beginning. now the white house counsel, but was campaign counsel. one of the smartest, most effective washington lawyers. >> why didn't he tell them this protocol? >> who knows whether they did or not. my point is, they had his advice. rules for running for governor in particular states, rules for running for senate. i've seen these business people hire people that know politics, as mr. trump did, and start to rely on their expertise so they do everything according to federal lie. they like to play the naivety