have been involved. i think it illustrates how the defenders of trump and the trump campaign don't know all the facts. none of us do. that's why the story keeps evolving the way it does. >> you have said on our air, this is the administration and their attorneys, jay sekulow in this case, moving the defense lines back. haven't they moved them back as far as you can go? as far as you can go is, well, it wasn't illegal. they're sort of like, okay we can do it again. >> it wasn't a high cream and misdemeanor justifying impeachment. that's the next line of defense. that's true but -- i mean, they do have some good arguments. it is still not clear whether any crime was committed, even if you believe more sinister interpretations of what the trump campaign was doing. >> right. >> we hear this word over and over again, collusion, collusion, which is sort of