l lavrov. i think if he didn't meet with president putin, that he can convey his sentiments and thoughts to the united states to the foreign minister. >> the history of meeting with kerry and secretaries of state influence the president's judgment on that? >> we'll have to see. we're not there yet. i think to prejudge the outcome of the visit -- >> in other words, for tillerson to see putin on this visit, even though they are -- would he want to convey -- >> i would say there's a bit of irony that for all of these talks that have been perpetuated about back channels, now it's that they won't meet with you, does that undermine the relationship, i think it's interesting that we went from all of these direct links to russia to now are we disappointed that we can't get a meeting with them. there's a direct irony with your question. >> i don't understand your point. at a time when the united states has called out russia for collusion with a government it