many ways except it's human. and that is such a counterbalance to all those other images we've seen in the past with the gun at his side and this really confident manner about how he's going to destroy america. >> you've written so well in "looming tower" about the relationship -- i mean, the history of al qaeda and the relationship between zawahiri and bin laden. what role -- do you think zawahiri now takes over al qaeda? >> i wouldn't be surprised if he's been running it for some time. i can't believe that that was really an operating center for al qaeda given how difficult entry and egress was. you know, he must have been very, very isolated. and so somebody's been running al qaeda very badly for the last several years. and that would very likely be ayman al zawahiri, who ran his own terror group in egypt into the ground. >> why did he run it into the ground? why is he not a good, effective leader?