okay. so you have an industry that sort of fundamentally, you know, has a bit of an issue there in trying to work out what its purpose actually is. >> reporter: you're quite cynical about it, around you? >> well, it's a business. it's a huge business. it's certainly a billion-dollar business. where armies of consultants, every conceivable donor agency, that's a big organization and a fragmented one. >> reporter: do you think it's helped? has it alleviated poverty? that's thing with question, isn't it? all that money, all that focus, that is done any good. >> has it eliminated the need for poverty, clearly hasn't. >> reporter: this is not a had you debate. where aid is dead. when it comes down to it, what are the solutions saying, listen, it's not working.