al libi, the cia picked him up and we brought him to omar suleiman in egypt to torture. that's what the purpose was, he was tortured rather dramatically by suleiman and he gave information that was fraudulent information about chemical and biological operations inside of iraq that colin powell used in his presentation, and, again, it was false. so what you see here is part of the mix that the united states has gotten into, the so-called dark side that causes so much trouble in terms of our legitimacy over the past few years and now the question is being called in terms of the united states as pro-democracy self-determination movements essentially arise from the bottom up and look to the united states for support as example. well, the fact is we are allied with the people they're trying to overthrow and right now the united states hasn't done much to separate those bonds. >> well, ron, just to add a little graphic detail, i think