world with black enterprise. and shane lee is a professor at tulane university, and author of several books. gentlemen, thank you so much for joining us. mark, is there a tendency in the black community to elevate church leaders to the level of superstars? >> oh, absolutely. we've seen that since the very beginning of black people's journey here in america. for a long time preachers are one of the few people who access to education, one of the few people who could exercise true leadership. not just black religious life, but black cultural and political life. before we had presidents and senators, we had celebrity preachers. we continue to sort of raise them up now. >> shane lee, is that necessarily a bad thing? >> it depends. it can be good, because i think competition and having people, ministers learn from each other and prove their messages and ministries, technologies, the ways of meeting the needs and tastes of people, i think that's a good thing. but when you build the spiritual