through an incremental system that will them get back to society in a good way. >> i don't disagree with the incremental approach. that's what i advise prisoners when i speak to them, letting them know incremental success is what they need to experience to enjoy a productive life. on the other hand, once again, returning to expungements, you have to wait five years of good behavior, no arrests or convictions before you're even eligible for that. and certainly five years is enough time to determine whether someone has been rehabilitated enough and therefore deserving of a second chance. >> dog, maybe you have a thought. if prison is supposed to work, why do so many people go back? >> welsh the reason they go back is they cannot get a job. i don't think anyone really likes it. and when you go out with so many -- and i'm not saying you change these laws, but, have you ever been convicted? i could say like this. okay, my record was expunged, i did five year, i've been good,