Transcripts For CSPAN3 Valerie 20240702

Legislature for outlets like ap and newsday. She currently for newsweek as an investigative reporter. And inconceivable is her first book. Shell be in conversation with Kristal Knight who you might seen as a commentator on msnbc or fox news. Or you may have listened her as the host of the Kristal Knight podcast hosted by newsweek. She is a graduate of the Howard University journalism program. Knight is also a political operative, founded the Voting Rights nonprofit, organized tennessee. So please me in welcoming to politics and Prose Union Market Valerie Bauman and Kristal Knight. Good evening. Hello. And before we get into the conversation, i know, valerie, you wanted give us a little bit of background and do a reading before we actually have our about the question and answers as well. You know, keep it short. Just i think that was a great introduction. Thank you so much. I just for little bit more background i was 38 in the middle of the pandemic. I realized i was out of time. It was now or never. Now, four years later, im actually pregnant finally and have a baby the way very soon. And its just been a really long, strange journey and. I came across this world and i just realized it was a story i had to tell. So im going to read just a little bit about some of the legal aspects this and this is from 11 of my book. Congratulations. Youre a father. Trent arsenal couldnt have expected federal agents to appear at his door demanding to search his home, but in 2010. The selfdescribed christian version became the first ever private donor to be targeted for fda and, for osment, the fdas center for biologics and research. Seeber sent arsenal a cease and desist order and threatened him with a 100,000 fine due to his prolific private donations that same year agents appeared at his door and searched his home on four separate occasions. The california man made 328 donations to 46 different recipients with the intent to get them pregnant at the time, his efforts had resulted in 40 births. The number rose to at least 25 as trent continued donating throughout the federal enforcement. Although he abstained sex. Trent had still testing every six months and had been providing fresh , primarily to lesbian couples free of charge. Since 2006. Seeber said that because trent failed to provide his donations through a bank or clinic and hadnt had the extensive and expensive weekly testing and the mandatory six month freeze in quarantine of that all donors must complete. He was in violation of federal laws and regulations governing donation of biological tissue, yet wide evidence of even more prolific in operation today, the fda has not gone after a single donor since trent was forced to shut down personal operation more than a decade ago. Now that freelance donation is exploding the agency will soon need to grapple with how and it plans to regulate growing form of reproductive activity among private americans. Sievers sole foray into fray via trents case, only served to raise an uncomfortable ethical and legal question for the agency, which may be the reason no freelance donor has been targeted in the same way under. What circumstances can the government tell you not to conceive another person . The fda is strict and costly regulations around donating a with a known donor arent required. The man is a quote sexually intimate partner of the recipient. The problem is that the government has no clear definition a sexually intimate partner, an admission that became central in the proceedings in trents case. In fact, silber asserted in that case the plain meaning of the words do require further explanation try. Trent and others contend that having someones in your body via Artificial Insemination qualifies them as a sexually intimate partner partner. And that continued exposure to that persons for the purposes of getting pregnant pose no additional risk to the recipient, nor would it violate laws governing donation. The this argument is key for trent all freelance donors, but also because recipients who want work with a known donor but go through clinic, say, instead of the back seat of a volkswagen, could also forgo the costly freezing and six month quarantine that would otherwise be required prior to either ivf. This could also help eliminate requirements at some clinics for psychological evaluations, copies of the legal contracts, among other bureaucratic indignities. Trents interpretation than is actually the law of the land in his home state of california. Meaning that state one home in 70 isnt achieved sexually intimate Partner Status for any given recipient pair. Unfortunately, fda held the trends assertions about how to define sexually intimate partner were merely an effort to skirt the issue. And in 2012, he was ultimately from donating unless and so he complied with fda requirements and obtained written permission from the agency. So well stop there. All right. Lets give her a round of applause. Ashley. First, perspiring right . Im like ten months pregnant, basically. We also that youre pregnant. So i want open up this conversation one by stating i was very excited when i got the invitation interview you because one. I think i shared this with you backstage. I froze my eggs during the pandemic and so is something that is so important to me and that i really care about. And i never about the opportunity or even the possibility of, you know, having a and not going through a bank or fertility. So this was a very, very interesting read. So thank you so much even writing this book. But the first question that i love to just explore in the book, you talk about a number of different women, men whove gone through the process. Why dedicate space in the book to talk about yourself . You could have just written this book talking about everyone elses different stories, but you your own story throughout the book. And that is so interesting as the backdrop of this entire story. Thats a good question. As a journalist, 20 years, im not really comfortable being part of the story. Its definitely unfamiliar. Me. I think the number one reason is i felt like i to be honest with the readers that to tell this without making it clear that i was passing judgments, making decisions and actively participating in the world felt dishonest and i also just felt from a writing perspective that my own story made sense as a narrative spine, as i was exploring different aspects the world i came across different elements thematically, whether it was legal issues, you know, encountering you know, prejudice among donors disclosed, you know, offensive things. Me that neatly fit into different chapters as i just went through my own chronology. So it really worked out very well for the writing process. Thats great. Thats great. In throughout the book, you share with this really in the beginning of the book, share with us how you began this discovery of finding men who wanted to donate their. And one of the ways and i went to the site you talk about facebook and how facebook has been a catalyst for so things because its surely of the first if not the first social media platform to spin the longest. Its the largest, but you you walk us through in the book how going to these Facebook Groups you find people in different parts of the country who say im willing to travel or i live in this region. And i just did a quick facebook search and i found Facebook Groups here in the dmv area, but that never occurred as possibility to me outside mediums like. How else have traditionally have women or folks who are trying to get pregnant found if not through a bank. Well, theres a lot of ways i mean, i think that that you found a lot of times in the seventies and eighties there a lot of lesbians who looked to their gay male friends to help them get pregnant. The dawn from my research, the world of freelance was in like the early mid 2000 on craigslist. Right. And then also some of the yahoo Message Boards or aol kind of message, Bulletin Boards and chat rooms, people either offer up their or say desperately seeking. And you would have these anonymous transactions and lot of the men, the donors were drawn to this. There just a recurring theme of men having formative early sexual encounters with. You know, an older woman, woman who wanted them to get them pregnant and then that suddenly was an issue that had to be scratched. And they sought out these online spaces where they could continue to pursue pursue that and and people, but also kind of fulfill some inner craving. Right. And when youre talking about people are donating their , you talk about Artificial Insemination actual insemination and the difference between the. What are some of the things you were warned a woman . Thats looking obviously even if shes going through a either a bank a nine traditional form, which is what the book is discussing worrying about the selection process. You did a lot of writing characteristics. You talked lot about, you know, questions you would ask on the first date or on the first face time. What are things that people should be aware of that folks just, you know, could be out here just really trying have sex and not being sincere about the donation process . Well, you know, im still actively involved in the groups and today i probably posted three or four times comments on somebody who is, you know, looking for a donor, i need them next week. Number one, take your time. I mean, whether youre going through a bank or not. Isnt isnt. This is going to create a human being. The that youre getting comes from a real human being who has their moral compass, who has their own personality, that are going to be part of whatever human you raise. And so i know the urgency i have lived urgency. And the at times desperation of just wanting to be pregnant, wanting to be a mom. But you cant rush that, especially not in the online world of freelance donation, because there are creeps out there. There are problematic men, there are men with breeder breeding fetishes. Lets just say it. And so so i think fact, the number one question is always, is your motivation, why are donating . Why do you want to do this . And i think that theyre the one that im most comfortable with that i dont always get is there are men who have a biological imperative to create more children than they can reasonably financially care for. And they see this as a way of helping women and being able to do that. And would prefer the men who have a limit, who just trying to produce dozens and dozens of. But they think, you know, is some way that i can get you an occasional photo update and have a kid out there and just, you know, not just humans living creature, you know, for the most part has some biological imperative to reproduce, to give life. I dont know why were on earth, but for me, thats the only answer i can think of for me. And so i do. These men who want to pursue it. But you have to really be careful. Take your time, come up with your own list of questions. What matters to you. And if you say blue eyes and blond hair, im worried, i think. Yeah, we want certain physiological traits in our kids, but who this human being going to be are . They going to be a good person. Are they going to be happy . You know, are they are they going to be curious inherently . And i was drawn to the world of freelance because i can find that out by interrogating a pejorative donor, a way you cant learn from a bank. Right. Thats thats so important. When you talk about freelance. In the book, you tell story about a lesbian couple and this particular story stuck out to me because they they found a donor. They got pregnant. They had the baby. And two years later, they broke up or they they separated. And it felt a little bit about like it was about deception in that one of the women ended up moving in with the man who donated the and she was able to somehow in a legal way get the her her former her former woman partners name off of the birth certificate. What are the dangers in processes like that particularly for same sex couples that that could happen that you know maybe they fall in love their donor and the person that theyre married to or the person that theyre with and that they birth this child with. If theyre not the conceive or that that could be a reality. Them that just felt it felt icky that that happened and i felt for the woman who was on the non winning side of that equation. Yeah, this was a heartbreaking case of oklahoma. Its in the state court. I think it would be handled differently, federal courts. But either way, want to protect yourself. The short is if you are a lesbian couple, even a heterosexual couple, couple using donor that is not from a bank do a second parent adoption. Thats the only way you protect yourself. Ultimately, the judge felt that in this case that, just having your name on the birth certificate wasnt. So i lost my train of thought. There a little bit, but there arent a lot of protections, and thats why i kind read the proportion that i read talking about the sexually intimate partner. If more clinics would get with the program and, acknowledge this adult, these two adults have agreed that person is going to be a donor to the recipient and were going to allow them to proceed as if theyre sexually intimate partners, but not a father role. Then you have, first of all, the safety and the security of the clinic is going to run their own dna testing, their own genetic testing, their own every possible analysis. So you have that protection. Youre not just relying documents that some some guy, you know, messaged you on facebook, but you also in writing this clinic viewed this person as a donor. They have a legal agreement that this this man is a donor and that would provide more protection. At this point in time, california is only state that has made laws that actually protect people who do home insemination. And i interviewed debra wald in book the author of those laws. So think theres a lot more work to be done in this area. Yeah. And speaking of the laws, particularly around debra you talk about or she rather advises it per book that you have some legal contract that is not just an agreement like i know you, you know me, were agreeing youre going to give me. But theres actually a legal and you explained in the book all of the questions that that she asked you. You werent prepared answer at first because we dont think about that when were naturally just thinking about conceiving. But talk to us a little bit about just the legal aspect and why important to have the legal you know the legal documents in place because people evolve peoples feelings change and that piece of paper document is really for you your protection and also for your unborn child. You have a notion of contracts that are actually extremely controversial in the world of freelance. A lot of the donors the men dont want to sign these contracts because in a lot of cases, the women have later use those contract to prove that their paternity in order to get Child Support later and attacked. Anecdotally it seems more likely that men will end up paying Child Support than women will end up having to share custody, mostly because these men are producing so many kids they couldnt possibly go after custody for all of them. Right. But at the at the end of the day, the laws are different in every state theyre weak in most states as i said, other than california. But you want to talk to a lawyer and you people will print off contracts off the internet and think that does the job but this is a case where pay lawyer its worth money. I paid 1,000 ive heard 1300 1500 in surrounding states. Get a lawyer to do your contra and know what your options are. The other thing is, as deborah walls, the author of the california law, said, if you have sex to get pregnant, congratulations. Youre a father. That is it bottom line. If you have sex with a donor, theres no way around. He is that he is the father and donors and the Facebook Groups dont like to hear this. They dont like it. You know i have comments deleted get really angry comments from the men and the moderators and they dont want it known because a lot of these guys are just trying to have sex so protect yourself legally physically and protect your family. Wow. Thats really good advice, particularly for folks who are considering going freelance donor route talk us a little bit as well. Just about this movement for women or parents who are deciding that they want to be single. Theyre Single Parents by choice. I think thats the way that you coined it per the book. What is that process it really i guess investigator doing this as a journalist and writing this book, how have you uncovered how people are feeling about to go this route, particularly in the alone space . Well, my mind is kind of going in two directions. On the one hand, i think, you know, the elephant in the room, health care in america is outrageously expensive. Absolutely. Theres not enough coverage for fertility. There. Just so few options. Not everybody can afford. I mean, if i had it me four years to get to the point where i am now expecting a baby next four years. If i had paid every you donation i mean i would have spent an extra 30,000 than i already did going ivf and other, you know, medicaid cycles and things. So the cost is a huge thing. Driving to this world. The other elements i want to talk about is while i am, i do consider myself, im going to be a solo mom by choice. This wasnt planned a this was not my decision. I didnt choose to be 42 and not have a partner. I thought i was going to get the fairy tale like everybody else. It didnt work out. But does mean i cant be a mom. Does that mean i cant build family . I cant accept and maybe some elements of that are selfish. But going this path pursue single motherhood in way where i could meet the donor my is has agreed to letters with my child and then meet at age 18. They my kid will have more access and more information his ancestry than a lot people from going through banks. And that was why i tried to do it. I knew im to be a selfish. I want to become a mom and im not going to give my kid a dad. But heres the way i can do the best i can to make this an informed decision and then try and put him first. I love that and i dont think its selfish. I think is your choice. Its your its my own hang up. I dont project that on anybody else. Me right. I mean because youre one of the things that you said to me backstage when i said i made the decision to freeze my eggs is that i control away from the man or my partner or whomever it was. And i put it back. I put myself back the drivers seat, and thats zach way i feel about birthright. Youre your choosing or youve chosen to in the drivers seat about the fate of having a baby and its about if i have a partner its the right person and the thing thats so inspiring about this book and about the way that you decided to document and include all the other stories. And even in the book you talk about freezing your eggs, you talk about journey and the instance you know, you got i think it was five eggs, but they werent able make it to the embryo and going back and just feeling like you wanted to be depressed. But your mom came and she gave you life and gave you the energy you needed to. Go through the next round, but for many women, theres a cost and theres a cost issue right because it costs to freeze your eggs. And then also, if its not success. So how did you decide that im going to try again . Because for people they would say, hey, i just wasted 15 or 20,000. I dont have it again to try again. Talk to us a little bit about not only the strength to do it, but the cost factor, because there is thats a real thing. Its a real reality. The cost is is tremendous. I mean, i was fortunate that i have fertility coverage. There was a lot that wasnt covered. I mean i spent tens of thousands dollars to get to this point and. Im grateful for the coverage that that i have. As far as to go keep going. I just i couldnt give myself the option to give up. And there is the risk of a spoiler. There is a part in the book where it got very dark for and i needed to get some Mental Health care and treatment deal with the grief of infertility, of loss and the fear i finally let myself consider. This may not happen. I may never, ever have my dream come true and become a mom and have a child to love. And i think so many of us come to the world of donation through a bank or otherwise, because weve been through grief, whether its grieving that you know, if youre, you know, your lesbian partner cant contribute half the dna. So you have to go and get a donor whether you thought you would be married and having a kid. So many different paths bring people to Gamete Donation and usually those paths are lined with grief and its amazing the perseverance that emerges in the midst of the darkest moments of grief, i cant explain it. Okay, thats thats fair. But thats fair and thats helpful. So if theres someone whos listening to this, obviously an audience here and people are thinking about, should i take this path . This is something been thinking about what are just words of wisdom or words advice that you would give to someone whos contemplating, particularly the freelance route . Well, i think that, you know, once again, take your time when choosing a donor matter where you get your from. Take your time making the decision i would say find your teammates. I was so fortunate to find a community here in washington d. C. A fellow aspiring single mothers by choice i called them the i called us the wannabe mommies im now the last one of us to get pregnant and they all have kids but surround yourself with people going through the same thing its amazing how your best friend who has three kids isnt going to necessarily get it. That doesnt mean you love them less or they love you less, but you need people who are in the fire with you to help you get through it and so i think having people on your side who understand when you can say, i really cant face another baby shower when its been three years and i still am not and i feel like a jerk and they are like, no, youre youre allowed to feel way. I think that is so important logistics leigh i would say going back to you, vetting your vetting your donors know whether its the bank or not just make sure youre asking the questions. And its really easy. Get sucked into, well, i want a baby curly hair or you know you know they better be over six feet tall. These arent the things that matter. Youre not going to love your kid more or less based on how they look. But i think you do want to have a kid whos going to be compatible, who you are and your family and, where you come from and looking at things, even on a bank looking at the materials that they have about this person does for a living and what their passions are. So the best that you can, who we are as people, is so much more important than appearance and thats what i really try to prioritize of my own, my own search. Well, and i have to ask, because youre actively caring, how is this book really helped you throughout your pregnancy . How is i mean, obviously youre a month youre a month away. So congratulations early. Congratulations. But how has this been therapy for you as been going through your own pregnancy journey . Oh, its absolutely. Been therapy its it was so wonderful to have, you know, a focus, the distraction, you know i writing a book on on evenings and weekends is not easy, especially when know so much of it is journalism. You have to interview people and talk to people. But it really helped me kind of channel my energy and times when i probably would have just turned into a puddle on the floor feeling. Sorry for myself. It was like, well, these are important emotions. I better write this down. I better get this paper and take advantage of it while i can. Its great and i really appreciate you for just journaling it and like you said, how i begin this conversation and infusing your own story with all the other stories that are really just anecdotal for the book and for the journey of of this process. I want now turn to the audience and see if there are any questions. Im sure folks have plenty of questions because is such an interesting topic, but id love to just if theres anyone here who has a question for valerie and about her process and about the book. I see a couple of hands. Hi. Thanks so much for sharing your story. For talk a little about how you came to to the place where you were ready to to take on being a single mom, you know, having a career all your passions and, then making real space for a baby on your. How did you say how did you figure it out and how did you build out a team to help you . What was that process like . That is a great question. I think. First, i want to preface this with, you know. Im having a baby of my own, but that doesnt mean i that i hate men. I love men. I think men are great. Im going to have a little boy whos going grow up to be a man. But i think i had been through so much with so many men, said, yes, i want to have kid with you. Yes, we have a future. And it didnt happen. And then i said, im you know, im 38 in the middle of the pandemic. And something i realized the way was, you see the media celebrity celebrities having babies at 42, 43, 44, 45. What they dont tell you is the huge amount of cost that goes into they dont tell you that a lot of times those arent made with those womens eggs. They got donor eggs, which is fine. Thats a valid, valid path. But it misleading and. You go to the gynecologist your whole life trying not to get pregnant and maybe your doctor will say do you want to have kids someday . Thats the end of the conversation. We are being failed by our medical community for, not talking to young women about fertility and about preparing ourselves to make choices independent of men because im going to go off topic a little bit, but i feel we are in hookup culture. Men are not as bound to partner with women and be part of a family. I as a woman am hard. I want a family. And i just realized i cant sit around and wait for a man to make that happen because i was out of time and it just hit me. I think with the mortality of the pandemic all around, its going to happen in this onyx. Not ideal way. Its not going to happen at all. And what i live with and what can i live with and i couldnt live with not being a mom. So it was it was really a decision out of necessity necessity. So this is a question about the hardest of writing the book. What section was the most difficult for you to power through . Write about who. Thats a good question. I think. The hardest part was. In the process of writing the book. I went through a loss. I had i had a miscarriage and i lost my baby and, um, thats when i ended up needing to get some Mental Health care. And actually it was a year later i thought i would be okay. Then the first mothers day that i was supposed to be a mom, i lost it. And then having to go back and re explore that once i had finally gotten a grip was really scary because i didnt want to go back to this dark, unstable and knew to for the sake of my readers, i needed to be authentic and honest and raw and it was very scary to open up the window into those feelings again. So that was definitely the hardest part, i would say. And thats this book feels authentic. It doesnt feel so pie in the sky like you. Based on one of the questions about celebrity. And we see this culture where, i think Janet Jackson had a baby at 50 and were just like, oh, i can do that. Youre right, money is different. And i didnt even think the donor eggs we were talking about donor , but of them have so much access to assistance that the everyday just doesnt. And writing this book or actually reading it for me made me realize its a possibility you are a living example and you walk us through so many examples in the book and the ups and downs right like the real life. So when you when you ask the question about what was the most difficult thing and you talk about the miscarriage thats something that a lot of women relate to. You have to try and try again until youre successful. But thats also the joy in this process. And i think thats the joy in reading and actually seeing you in real life with the baby, with the belly that theres theres a happy ending. There is a happy ending. And yeah, im just and im so grateful that i am where i am. And not everybody does their happy ending. Thats thats the sad thing. But i think that i think that getting to this point, its just poetic that my came out on tuesday and then, you know, a month later im expecting to have a baby so its a big year for me and its really come together in this really unexpected, beautiful way. And i just have to give myself over to fate sometimes and and accept that things are are not going to always work out the way you want. But maybe they are the way they should be. Wise, very wise words are there are other questions or comments even about, okay, i see two hands. Thank you. Im curious, this dual role that you had being a participant, also a journalist, what sorts of challenges you had navigate pitfalls or . Did it enrich the experience . Um, yeah. Wed love to get your thoughts on that. And another great question and just to repeat, in case anybody didnt hear that, so how did i navigate the line between being a journalist and a participant . It was really difficult at first, but and i really, i think the toughest part for was wanting to do justice by the community of men who are online donors because there are so many who are problematic, there are so many who are creeps, but there are also good guys out there who are really making dreams come true the way mine dreams have been made to come true. And there was a lot of interesting among these. And so i really had to challenge myself when instinct is to say, ooh, you know, this is you know, this is appalling to me when, you know, when when somebody basically talks about they, you know, they dont even enjoy sex. Its conception sex that gives me the willies. I dont know about you, but but i had to try and really step back. And because i was part of the story, you know, my my editor at times me let us know how you feel about that and that part was challenging but i think it also my journalistic background helped me really open up. You know, one thing that struck me was, the donors who talked about we need to realize a lot of these young men are donors, grew up i remember life before the internet. It came around when i was maybe nine. These men grew up. They never had life without internet, without free access to easy. They never had they had, you know, video games that make womens bodies look obscenely unrealistic. And social media, which makes it harder for you to interact in real life if all you is interacting in this pseudo world and i think a lot of these men struggle with their masculinity this is the postmetoo era. They dont know how to be men. And i think its really easy as women who have been wronged by men in the past to turn your nose up at that. But i would challenge us to hear these men out and if they are struggling in their masculinity and to know what that means, you hear the word masculinity without the word toxic before it, and thats unhealthy for society, my opinion. And so to hear the how some of these older donors, more experienced donors would coach the younger donors and say, you cant treat women, that you cant behave like observer and insist every woman have sex with you. And they found space where men could be men together. Sometimes that turned out not, but sometimes there was mentoring happening and so i think because of my journalism background to bring it back to your your question, i was able to push back being part of the story and trying hear these sometimes uncomfortable perspective then i hope i did justice representing in the book. Bit. Yeah there was one in the back end went up front and here have come across any bias from the medical community during this process. Mm. Absolutely. I have an entire chapter which is called dr. Patronizing. I, i had a doctor who was so insulting to me. I ended up switching i ended up switching fertility clinics, but, you know, hes snapped at me. I had my first egg retrieval and they hoping to get five eggs. They only got three. And the way i found out was woke up from a and i had a postit note with number three on it and it was circled and it made me think of when the guy broke up with carrie in sex and the city on a postit note, i was like, this is how you communicate this to me and. When i finally got to talk to him, i said, why didnt you set my expectations . You were telling me, you know, you were expecting five or six eggs. And hes like, this is exactly what i expected. Its not my fault your eggs are old. And then turned and walked away and the same doctor every time i had a question, his answer was, i have 34 years of experience. Its like, congratulations. Thats not the answer to my question. I think that im just so tired of being talked down to as a woman. I am fortunate. Ive covered a lot of health care. I know how to advocate myself, i know how to work the system. But im so of having to just come unit kate with me like im an intelligent adult and like i am here for my life to have my dream of, being a mother come true. This is a this is as it gets. So anyway anyway, so obviously it started as very personal journey for you, but at what point along there did you decide . Was there a specific moment . Youre like, theres a story here that needs to be told. Thats than me. Or like, what . What was the impetus for the book specifically, not just for your personal . It was very on as soon as i came across the world, freelance donation. I mean, i was going through these facebook pages. I kind of stalked them a little bit before i actually jumped in. But just seeing the conversations that were happening it stopped now, but initially, i would see like a very attractive woman poster picture and say, im looking a donor, i live in you tulsa and da da da da. And the donors would say, did was as if she had no agency in deciding who her donor was. And they would get into these little back and forth tiffs about, i was here first and its like, this is not your decision, sir. And i just felt like this is nuts. Like there was still enough there that made me think this is a route i want to choose because i love to have a donor that my could have more access to. But i just it was such a wild west. I was like, i got to tell this. I got to see where this takes me. So thank you good question. And speaking of wild west, a few of the stories that youve shared in the book. In one of your own was just about going to retrieve and going into a random bathroom and putting your legs up. And i mean, how how did you do that . I mean, you talked about getting on the metro, going 30 minutes out to meet a man and you guys you know and you said was it didnt matter if it was a holiday if it was raining, if it was sunny. But he would consistently meet you go into the mens restroom, come out, give you the , and you would go into the womens restroom and. Then you had this long ride back home into city. That is it. I mean have you like thats a process and. You documented it in the book. So im just curious like what did that feel like . Im going to get this freelance im meeting up almost like in a back alley, although it was in a back alley. But im meeting you know, youre going into the mens room. Im going into the womens room. Im inside myself. And then im getting back on the train like. Im going to get a coffee like, yeah, it wasnt easy. I tried to go through the clinic and and i went to that doctor patronizing thing and said, will you let me use this donor . We can do all the testing here. And he said, no, you cant. You have to spend like 60 500 and wait six months to have his quarantined, which again goes back to the legal element of how do we define a sexually intimate partner. Its like if ive had this persons inside of me i think were good, you know, but i in my head just had to think of it as clinical. You know, this is know this is a transaction. This is clinical. You know, i could be getting an intrauterine insemination, but im not. This is my option. And it was its just sheer determination. You know, i still look back on it. And its amazing to me that i did it and i can see how its shocking and scandalizing. But but it was it was only way i could see doing was still giving my kid the access i wanted to to know where they came from. Yeah. In in the process. So you also talk about how genetic testing is and seti, of course testing. Is that something that you found it as a different hurdle of the freelance option of or is this something that, you know, you would do normally throughout if youre going through bank . If you go through a bank, all the testing is done for you, which is great, but one thing we havent touched on today is the huge problems and the testing that doesnt get done in banks, which, you know, theoretically they psychological testing. But you know theres a very famous case from the zyrtec bank where for years they let a guy donate. He produced, i believe, 33, 36 children that they know of and. It turned out he wasnt this musician. He was actually a convicted criminal. And had had some psychological he had he had a schizoaffective disorder. And a lot of the children produced this kid via a bank, which is supposed be safe, had various Mental Health problems as a result. So i think my research on the banks, i just i didnt feel a whole lot more going that and thats just one instance. And the other thing is, the banks, they have lots they have lobbied actively against any regulation to limit how children and how many how families can be donated to and how many children produced. Now, in the world of freelance , you got high volume donors who are producing lot of kids, i was able to find a guy has helped ten families. Hes done. Theres a Facebook Group where, the different women who have been can join and they want to have their half meet my kid and other half siblings. Thats to me. I know this person i feel like there some element of trust but im sorry did i answer your question . Yeah. Well, i mean, i think what your whats sharing is the difference going through a bank. The question was around the genetic testing. The size but i think what you took us through just youre not necessarily any more is that any more secure going a bank than doing it this freelance way particularly with the last example that you just shared around this donor. Who has whos helped families . Thats a more controlled you have access to the other women, they have access to meeting you and interacting with your child. Whereas a bank say this donor can only donate up to two or three families or whatever their regulations are. And i think thats the big takeaway for me, which is that this is a this is probably a better option than going through a bank because of the fda because of the that the medical system is set up and, because of the the judgment. I mean, even about doctor patronizing the way that medical officials just kind of treat throughout this process you know i dont know its better i think it was better for me i dont condone it and i dont condemn it i think every prospective parent needs to make own decision about whats right for them. For a lot of people, the banks do feel safer and in some ways are for me it was if i have a prospective and i say i need you to take a new sti test, and they say, no, thats the end of the conversation. A lot women out there will hem and haw and they think hes got those blue eyes. Im going to im going to let this one slide and. I paid for my genetic testing and, did go through the clinic for that. Ultimately. So and i had i had the first thing you to do is get your own done. If youre a carrier for something it makes that very real that cant risk it. Im a carrier for spinal muscular atrophy. No one in my family has ever had that. But it can be a devastating disease. A lot of kids are born and die within the first couple of years and so there was no question i was going to i was not going to work with a donor who wasnt willing to do the genetic testing. But you do have donors both in banks and the freelance world that find ways to hide things. So theres no guarantee. But how many married couples in the, you know, heteronormative normative, you know, tradition get genetic testing done all of them, you know, a lot of them know what theyre getting into. So at a certain point, youve to find the balance thats right for you. Got it. Got it. And i know we have maybe like five more minutes. We have to wrap. So if there theres do we have okay. Im getting the signal that we dont have time for. A last question, but valerie, want to just say i want to close this out and just say i really appreciate you for taking the time to not only share this, the minister that youve shared throughout this book, but also your own personal journey and. Reading this book has been truly inspiring and thank you for sharing it at large with everyone here and folks that are watching this. Im a little bit later but thank so much for writing inconceivable and we wish you the best next month. Thank you so much, all of you. Thank you all for joining us. What will be an email in conversation with the reverend jim wallace. He is the author of several bestselling books, including the new New York Times best selling book, the false white gospel, rejecting christian nationalism, reclaiming true faith and redefining democracy